(Show: FOX HANNITY & COLMES)
(Date: November 8, 1999)
(Time: 21:46)
(Tran: 110804cb.253)
(Type: Show)
(Head: Is "Dogma" Anti-Catholic?)
(Byline: Sean Hannity; Alan Colmes)
(Guest: William Donohue; David Sterritt)
(Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; "Dogma"; Religion; Catholic Church)

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan Colmes.

If controversy helps sell tickets, the new movie "Dogma" should be a hit. Catholic groups are urging people to to see the movie starring Matt Damon and Ben Affleck because they believe it contains scenes that are offensive to Catholics.

Let's have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TRAILER FOR "DOGMA")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: Do Catholics have a legitimate beef with "Dogma"? Joining us are William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, and David Sterritt, film critic for "The Christian Science Monitor."

You've read the script, Bill, you've seen this a couple of times. Is there a legitimate reason not to go see this, or to even make sure it never gets seen by anybody?

WILLIAM DONOHUE, CATHOLIC LEAGUE PRESIDENT: Well, Disney made the decision two days after I warned them that if they went ahead with this, that there'd be problems with Catholics. They thought it was inappropriate for all their labels. > I have read virtually every single review in the English language, and it's amazing the number of film critics who regard this as purely anti-Catholic, even though they're not offended by it. That's another curious thing altogether.

He himself has said, Kevin Smith, who's the director of this, in reply to Howard Stern, Stern said, Well, I guess the religious folks aren't going to like this one. He says, No, I know, that's why I'm happy about it.

So look, there's really very little question. The Mass is compared to bad sex, up, down, up, down, kneel. We've got a descendant of Jesus who works in an abortion clinic, a filthy mouth did (ph) 13th apostle, Catholic Church caricatured all (inaudible) --

COLMES: I see you memorized the script, I see.

DONOHUE: Well, I tell you, I know it pretty well, I'm pretty sick of it.

COLMES: All right. Like, David, you've seen it, I mean, are you off -- are you Catholic?

DAVID STERRITT, FILM CRITIC, THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR: (inaudible) --

COLMES: And are you offended by it?

STERRITT: -- no, I'm not Catholic, and I'm speaking for my newspaper either. I'm just speaking as an individual critic. I have seen the film a couple of times. And of -- you know, this movie contains an enormous amount of really foul language. There's a lot of sex jokes, there's a lot of bathroom humor. This movie has plenty of stuff to offend lots and lots of people.

And the fact that it also has religion as its central theme is -- of course, makes it even more offensive. But is this not the kind of movie kids come to see? Kids will come to see this movie, and they will get a dose of religion.

COLMES: And you know something, Bill? Some of these films you've objected to were bombs, they were not good movies. You helped tickets on some of these things, like Terence McNally's show, would have closed even sooner had -- you're helping to sell tickets to some of those --

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Jerry (inaudible) now he's played Corpus Christi, bombed, it never made it to Broadway. "Nothing Sacred" went after it. We killed that one. (inaudible) priest --

COLMES: (inaudible) market -- let the marketplace (inaudible) --

DONOHUE: Well, well, I mean, yes, no, but all we're doing -- look, Jews recently complained about this movie "Jacob the Liar" because it didn't show all the points in the Star of David. Muslims had a fit over the movie "Three Kings." Hindus had a fit over "Xena the Princess Warrior" and "Eyes Wide Shut."

The American Academy of Pictures and Arts and Sciences came out and said to NBC, We may pull the Oscars, because we didn't like Jay Leno telling jokes. We could go on here all night about this. Miramax changed the movie "Teaching Mrs. King" -- "Killing Mrs. Tingle" to "Teaching Mrs. Tingle." Then they're worried about a dog who drinks wine.

Everybody complains. The American Academy of Arts and -- Motion Picture of Arts and Sciences, the Motion Picture of Arts and Sciences, the Hindus, the Jews, the blacks, everybody complains. As soon as Catholics complain about a movie, say -- people say, Wait a minute, what gave you the right to complain (inaudible)?

COLMES: No one's saying that.

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: That's not what I'm saying.

HANNITY: Let's go through this a little more slowly here if we can. Number one, as Bill pointed out, one of the characters, a descendant of Jesus, works in an abortion clinic. (inaudible) would Catholics have a right to be offended by that?

STERRITT: Oh, I think that a lot of people will be offended by that, a lot of Catholics --

(CROSSTALK)

STERRITT: -- a lot of people don't want jokes about -- under any circumstances about that sort of thing.

HANNITY: The Catholics (inaudible) -- all right. Rufus the 13th Apostle, left out of the Bible because he's black. Would Christians feel offended by that?

STERRITT: I'm sure that many would, of course, yes.

HANNITY: OK. That --

STERRITT: I think this movie has an incredibly long list of things that will offend a lot of people. But --

HANNITY: But -- but you know what? (inaudible) --

STERRITT: -- the movie is also --

HANNITY: -- there is (inaudible) -- there is a common theme here, if we talk about Corpus Christi or what we call "Piss Christ," a crucifix in urine, this recent picture of the Virgin Mary with elephant dung on it and pictures of pornography, this whole list of movies that he's been involved in.

You know, it seems Catholic bashing is the one -- it's the one last bashing where it's acceptable to go after people's religion (inaudible) --

STERRITT: I think that there's a number of groups --

HANNITY: -- double standard --

STERRITT: -- who are saying, Our group is the last one that you can still bash. (inaudible) --

HANNITY: Could do this for the gay -- could you do this for the gay and lesbian group?

STERRITT: I am sure that there is such a thing as Catholic bashing. But I'm not sure that a lot of the works that have been mentioned here today really come into that category at all.

A lot of these works are made by people who are sincere practitioners of one religion or another who have their own unique distinctive taste about it. I can't say what Kevin Smith really believes in his heart, but if he says, I'm a Catholic and I think that I have the right to make some jokes about it.

And, this is a crucial point I'm about to make, if the movie contains some really intelligent, sensitive things scattered here and there throughout all that vulgarity and bad taste, about religion, I think some people --

HANNITY: Oh, so in other words, well, based, wait a minute.

STERRITT: -- will conclude, This (inaudible) movie's really not so bad.

HANNITY: Based on your logic then, you can have all garbage, but as long as in the middle of -- some people would use the argument if it's a movie that's you know, sexually explicit, but as long as they show a condom being used, and they're being responsible, therefore we're sending a good -- that one scene is enough to make (inaudible).

STERRITT: I'm not going to defend garbage in either real or hypothetical movies. But there's a long list --

DONOHUE: You're doing a very good job defending this one (inaudible) all night. What are you talking about?

STERRITT: (inaudible) sure about that.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: You're doing a wonderful job, keep it up.

STERRITT: There's a long list of movies that young people --

DONOHUE: And you write for the Christian Science Monitor.

STERRITT: And I am not speaking for my newspaper --

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: (inaudible) we can pick it up right there in just a moment. We'll be right back. And coming up on the screen, some information about how to get in touch with us here at HANNITY & COLMES. There's a street address, 1211 Avenue of the Americas, 10036. The e- mail address, if you want to e-mail us, hannity@foxnews.com, colmes@foxnews.com, or you can fax us. We'll be right back on HANNITY & COLMES.

(21:53)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "DOGMA")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: All right, welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Sean Hannity.

That was another scene from this new film called "Dogma." All right, now, just for the record, you're not in favor of censoring this movie in any way. You never have been. I mean, I -- just for the record.

DONOHUE: The censors are on the other side, like Dan Petrocelli, who is the lawyer for the Weinsteins, who wrote me this fascistic letter saying that if there's any violence associated with the protest over "Dogma," they're going to hold me personally accountable. So did Kevin Smith.

You know, it's interesting. Kevin Smith says, I have to tone down the violence in the movie because of "Columbine." You just saw here on the screen, everybody watched it, about Rufus. He says, Brother, you got to be careful, you owe me a dime. In the original script, it said Nigger. Now, why did they take the N-word out? Because they didn't want to offend African-Americans.

Why didn't they take out anything that might offend Roman Catholics? It's not the central question.

HANNITY: But -- but -- but -- but the main part, and I think people need to know this, because you've been involved in these controversies with "Corpus Christi." We had you on the program about -- about the Virgin Mary and elephant dung, and some controversial art.

You are not about censorship, but you are about information, and you're now taking your case to the --

DONOHUE: I want to do what every other segment of the population has done, GLAD and ADL and NOW and NAACP and many other people. When we see something that offends us, we're going to have a public education campaign. Sure, we're going to be public advocates for our religion, our cause and we're going to put --

HANNITY: All right.

DONOHUE: -- the finger on the people --

HANNITY: Now --

DONOHUE: -- who are offending us. But no, we're not asking for censorship.

HANNITY: All right, let's David, I want to go back to you for just a second. When here you have a case, apparently there's an angel that works as a stripper compares Catholic Mass to bad sex.

STERRITT: Yes, I mean, you can go on with that list for a very long time. The movie is full of exactly the sort of thing that so many other of today's teenaged over-the-top gross-out movies are full of. I am not for one second defend -- there are things in this movie that offend me. There's lots of things in this movie that I would never defend, but I -- I -- I -- that -- and that people --

HANNITY: All right --

STERRITT: -- should stay away from. But unlike so many of these other movies, "There's Something About Mary" or "American Pie," this movie also has, here and there, some serious and even thoughtful and even sensitive talk about religion.

COLMES: You know, in society, all groups are one time or another offended. You're saying that there's more of a vendetta against Catholics than any other group, that you're offended more, Jews get offended, gays get offended, there are all kinds of things in the pop culture that offend just about any group (inaudible).

DONOHUE: I think there's more bigotry against gays as individuals than there are against Catholics. We have a rotten record even in this country of anti-Semitism. But I'm saying this. In terms of bigotry against an institution, there's no greater bigotry in this country today than there is anti-Catholicism against the teachings --

COLMES: All right, but you --

DONOHUE: -- of the Catholic Church.

COLMES: All right. Do you think this guy Smith who did this film, you think this is institutional anti-Catholic bigotry? This guy's a Catholic. This is his way of satirizing his faith. That's how he (inaudible) --

DONOHUE: This is a guy who just came out. Let me just read this thing very quickly. This is the mentality that we're dealing with. He came out just on Sunday, just yesterday, he said, "People say abortion has everything to do with God because God doesn't want people to die. But it seems like God wants a lot of people to die because people die all the time. God is actually pro-death, I think."

We're dealing with a moron. Don't you understand?

COLMES: So let him be a moron.

DONOHUE: We're dealing with a moron here.

COLMES: Let him be a moron if that's what you think.

DONOHUE: And this is incredible. Yes, but he can't be a moron when he's talking to my religion. Go pick on the Buddhists or somebody else for a change.

COLMES: It's his religion too, though, David.

DONOHUE: You know, it's ridiculous.

COLMES: David --

STERRITT: You know, you're selling an awful lot of tickets for this moron's movie, if it really is so bad, if kids don't want to go want to go see it, then it'll die.

DONOHUE: (inaudible) a lie.

STERRITT: I predict a lot of kids are going to go see it, and they're going to get a little bit, just a little bit of religion in there too, which is more than they get from 99 percent of the movies that they go to see. Movies today are full --

HANNITY: All right, we got to --

DONOHUE: They're going to get religion?

STERRITT: -- of filth and violence and awful stuff. And at least there's a touch of something else in this movie --

HANNITY: David, Bill Donohue --

STERRITT: -- that's all I have to say.

HANNITY: -- thank you both for being with us, we appreciate your time tonight. That's it, thank you for joining us. We'll be back tomorrow night, 9 P.M. Eastern. We'll have more lively debate. Hope you'll join us. Have a good night.